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10 A Journal of Contemporary Shamanism VOLUME 8 ISSUE 1 SPRINGSUMMER 2015 ally what I tried to do for this script direction this bear is not an accident. It is rather a culmination of everything that has happened up to that point where this man has made a terrible choice to go along with a terrible law he knows is wrong and there has to be divine justice for it. So the bear is actually an en- actment of all the pain and all the suffering that all these choices have brought together and created something bigger. The bear is actually more divine than it is physical. On a personal level as an artist thats the question I tend to gravitate toward How do we accept Change or Death We are afraid to take those steps and yet we crave a higher spiritual experience. CC So how did you get the actors in the frame of mind for those spiritual questions like in The Winters Tale with the bear VM A lot of it came down to discussing it dramaturgically. For example in Shakespeares time Fate would be understood as a physical force. Then all you had to do in the story was refer- ence it and it might as well be present. In todays society thats not so true. So for this play we actually chose to embody Fate physically in the form of these ethereal creatures that roamed the stage. The funny thing was I think without ever using spiri- tual or religious terms the actors were willing to embrace it on that level with storytelling. I think the story took them. We all have our stories and Im particularly interested in the stories we all share the Jungian archetypes and those things that bring us all together. Its actually so much easier to be divisive and it takes so much more energy to be inclusive. It takes so much more willpower and thought power just to look at somebody and say I see you. CC Say more about when you sit on the sidelines and give the actors agency and then watch the response of the audience. VM I dont believe the director is an artist in the traditional sense I believe we are curators for other artists. And if you take that role on and really embody that as a director you have to give the actors the room they need to make their own art. I know one of the most popular theories used in directing is this idea that I will tell you who you are what you are how you act and what that is. But if you want the actor to have the kind of experience thats more a one-to-one relationship with the question itself as a director you have to get out of the way. You have to allow the actor to use his own vessel and not put your imprint upon it. A show is a vehicle that requires many vessels to be operat- ing instantaneously with each other so my job is to guide and to make sure each one of these individual works of art can coex- ist in a way that services the story. I really believe in allowing them their artistic right and allowing them their practice and their own answers to these profound questionseven if the answers are not the ones I want. By their coming to their own answer the role becomes meaningful to them and they become invested in that role. Because we all have every character in us every archetype it will manifest differently for each person. And Im also there to be the conduit between what the playwright has written and what they get out of it. Part of my job is to give them the tools they need to take that embodiment on personally. And what Ive found is that it creates artists who want to tell the story its no longer a chore and they enjoy the experimentation. They enjoy asking the questions and even in some instances enjoy the frustration. Im just really there to set the groundwork so that each of these artists can come to the script with their own honest vitality. CC So thats the actors experience. What happens with the audience VM To me theater is a sacred space theres a community that watches and a community that enacts. And the commu- nity that watches is there to have a mimetic relationship in that they will have feelings and they will be brought to a higher understanding of some kind by witnessing somebody else going through this experience. CC So the depth that the actors can get to will pull the watchers along into their own deeper experience into that larger story in which we all exist. VM One of the worst things we can do to an audience is to lie to them. Because the minute we feel were lied to we shut down. So how can we truthfully work with these stories and with this audience As much as the audience gets to feed off the actors the actors do the same. So when the audience is with them and believes what is happening they become invested. And as that energy grows the actor becomes more invested. Theres nothing more wonderful than everyone in the room is thinking and feeling the same thing everyone having the same joy and the same sorrow. I think as a community thats how we heal and how we thrive. CC How do you see shamanism and a shamanic per- spective informing and inspiring your work VM I think the biggest thing shamanism has done for me is given me a language and a home for my instincts. Shaman- ism has provided a vehicle by which I could suddenly start to structure and utilize them. Once I started to see how ritual could work and how ritual has been used to heal and to move others I suddenly had a direction and some tools. For instance I would journey with a text in mind to try to get some perspective and direction I would use it as a personal tool to find my strength for any trepi- dations and fears. It also gave me some clarity on things that up until that time I had been afraid to talk about like seeing energy systems and being able to manipulate them. Shaman- ism gave me a way to recognize them as a legitimate force and something that I could use in a healthy manner. One of the challenges going forward has been how to bring shamanism out of a personal practice and let it be more produc- tive in my rehearsal spaces without it being something that creates difficulty for others. What amazes me is the more I bring it forward the more people are interested and want this. Its starting to grow and evolve in such a way that I recog- nize if I really practice what I preach my mission is to take on shamanic theater in my own fledgling theater. Were still in the