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18 The Journal of Shamanic Practice VOLUME 5 ISSUE 2 FALL 2012 people. I think the new shamans have to realize that the current cosmic vision in the West is something that creates separation. There has to be a paradigm shift. We need to change the way we source the way we see ourselves in the world. Bryon Can Westerners understand the true function of the teachings without shifting their separation-based paradigm to a oneness-based paradign like the cosmic vision embrace by the traditional Qero Herrera I believe that many westerners have that deep realization and understand- ing. Don Manuel always held tremendous hope and trust that we as people are headed in that direction in spite of our difculties. We are gifted with intent with faith with dreams with visions with heart. Everyone is a co-creator. You have to step outside your paradigm. Theres no other way around. You cannot utilize the separation para- digm. Everyone has the faculty and that awareness of being an active participant in the creation of life. It is probably the greatest awakening with this comes responsibility and with that comes aware- ness and vision. You have to have a vision. Bryon If we cant understand the deeper function arent we in danger of just transporting empty rituals and ceremonies that will not touch the hearts of the people Herrera Indeed theres always that danger. In the West we dont have herders and farmers. People buy their food in su- permarkets. So out of necessity you have to adapt the old into the new setting and in that process of adaptation you bring other elements. In my case I cannot just stick to Qero cosmic vision. I also love the approach of jungle shamans their way of seeing and understanding energy is also based in Oneness. It really has to do with becoming a global individual. A person involved in change and growth has the responsibility to attend to the collective and be the steward of global change. Bryon So serving the collective is not col- lective in terms of the culture but rather you are referring to the actual energy the higher vibration of the collective. Herrera Collective doesnt necessarily mean your group of people your family or your country. Collective means living a life in which youre no longer your own person but you are collective. You are the land. You are the people. Sourcing from this other entirely different way so you that dont have to deal the shortcomings of the personal which is your self framework that carries your sense of misfortune love money or work. Collective means the makeup of light or fertility etcetera. Can that support you Can you grow corn with it Bryon It has been helpful for me to understand that the energy of the collective includes four levels the literal or physical symbolic mythic or archetypal and the essential or energetic levels. What level of the collective are you are talking about specically Herrera A mythic understanding of real- ity. The mythic sense gives you one thousand and one ways to understand it. One thousand and one ways to express it and all of them are valid. There are many approaches. Ultimately the greatest capacity for human beings comes through intent through love through all those wonderful virtues passion dedication focus or stubbornness what- ever. Those are just a plethora of adjectives describing your capacity to create a mean- ingful life and thats what my whole thing is about. We play with different approaches. Its inspiring people getting them to func- tion outside the norm outside their tradi- tional cocoon of understanding. Through experiences and particularly ritual new pathways of understanding are created and through those pathways of understanding the capacity to create more meaning more love for life develops and grows. Bryon How is this meaning created Herrera You have to create a narra- tive that people can be interested in that they can follow. It must inspire them and ignite creative passion and through that inspiration they can create meaning for themselves. You have to feed them enough material ideas inspiration passion what- ever so they can create meaning out of it. Thats the key. Here in Peru we have gone into these places these mountains to create a massive shift in the way people create meaning. Its not only a story because the experiences have become cellular. We have felt it in our bones. The call has become skeletal. The more ways you have to create meaning the more wholesome is the understanding. Anything that has not been that has not come into ayni or has not been fullled will always try to nd a pacha to fulll itself Pachas are an allocation of energy signicant life events occurring at specic times and places that shape personal fate and destiny. Bryon I think its important for those of us in the West to realize that it is not just love and light. To do this we have to feel it with our heart and in our bellies and we have to be able to use our minds in way that were able to work with it. Herrera True. I would say the same thing but in different words. Everyone has to have a code. Our souls carry that original code. That code is the memory of fulll- ment the memory of fruition or wholeness whats valid for you. What is empower- ing to you and sacred to you What is it Is it family Is it love Is it vision Is it God Is it your wife Is it your heart The inner code has to do with how you walk in the world and your sense of balance your sense of love your sense of right-relationship. People need to be led into that direction to understand how they can abide to that code and how this code might work in alignment with the code of a certain cosmologies such as the Qero. Spiritual cosmologies can be supportive in our growth when we are in the process of becoming of coming out of the cocoon. We need certain directives we need certain parameters for character personality and focus to contain and understand energy.